stock& forearm does have scuff marks. ADD 35.00 SHIPPING HANDGUN. Several new commercial rounds based on the .308 Win. 1. Has custom leather stock but protector. Get your copy today at OutdoorGroupStore.com. There is No Buyers Premium if you bid using method A, B, and C. 7. And both are perfectly suitable for bolt guns, too. Chambered in the unique .348 Winchester cartridge, this rifle was designed to handle any l Click for more info With 200-220 grain bullets the recoil energy of the .358 is similar to that of the popular .30-06/180 grain load. Contact the seller today using our contact form. The bolt had a separate rotating head with three lugs that locked into the front of the receiver. This became the most powerful cartridge available for the Model 88. They would also profit from inclusion in a Long Ranger with a 22 inch barrel. in that they launch large-diameter, moderately heavy bullets at medium velocities. The .223 Remington, .243 Winchester, .257 Roberts and .308 Winchester are also relatively high velocity cartridges with good long range potential. Any/all announcements made day of sale take precedence over any printed matter After inspecting fired cases for splits or other flaws, resizing should be done carefully to avoid setting the small shoulder back too muchthis invites incipient case head separation. But do you know how to properly use them? While I wasnt doting on B.C. This is very nice Marlin Firearms Model 1894CL "Classic" lever action rifle in .32-20 Winchester. The clip release mechanism resided at the front of the magazine well. There is wear Visa, MasterCard, American Express, Discover, Cash, Check (Packaging and Shipping costs are an added expense). You have read and agree with the Auctioneer Terms and Conditions below and the Invaluable Terms of Use Agreement The old 200 grain Winchester Silvertip factory load (since discontinued) seemed to expand more readily than the 220 grain Speer Hot-Cor bullet. All Items will have new owners. The Model 88s entire trigger assembly cycled with the lever as one unit. Marlin chambered its 336 in 356 Win. Notify Me When Available; Brand: Henry; Item Number: H014-308 HEIRLOOM; Browning BLR White Gold Medallion 308 Win Lever-Action Rifle Brand: Browning; Item Number: 034017118; Order by Aug. 9. Although dozens of brands and hundreds of individual rifle models are offered today, only one other production rifle (a lightweight model that kicks pretty hard) is currently offered in .358 Winchester caliber. and converted it to .358 Win. is the only medium bore to appear in top 10 selling cartridge lists.). It is more common now to see custom The maximum average pressure (MAP) for the .358 Win. The receiver featured side ejection, and the solid top was drilled and tapped for scope mounts. The .358 is a very efficient cartridge and it really slaps animals down at woods ranges. Pick-Up is available at our location of 1085 Table Rock Road, Gettysburg, PA 17325. 8. Mag. Shipping on the larger items such as bronzes, animal mounts, bear traps will be the responsibility of the purchaser to facilitate shipping due to the size & weight of the items. Given these facts, a Henry Long Ranger Carbine in .358 Winchester makes a lot of sense for the woods hunter. It was the ultimate iteration of Winchester levers and, although coming at the end of westward expansion, is often called "The Gun that Won the West." Overall Length: 37 1/2. I handload the 220 grain Speer FP bullet at around 2400 fps, which is easily obtainable with several powders. WebBrowning .358 Winchester Lever Action Rifles (3 Products) Sort By: Browning 034018120 BLR Lightweight Stainless with Pistol Grip Lever 358 Winchester 20" 4+1 Walnut Stock However, the Army brass was astute enough to see that the new round duplicated the decades-long effectiveness of the 06. While these rather blunt Silvertips are effective for close range work, more aerodynamic offerings from Winchester and Hornady milk more potential from this cartridge. The round is versatile, and a bevy of excellent components is available for the handloader. The .284 incorporated a rebated rim. WebBuy Browning BLR 358 Winchester /Leupold 1.75x6: GunBroker is the largest seller of Lever Action Rifles Rifles Guns & Firearms All: 973522313. WebSeller Description. This does not mean the cartridge was or is a dog. This modern lever action rifle was specifically designed for short action (.308 length) cartridges. This would make scope mounting and use easier. When the Henry Repeating Arms Co. (www.henryusa.com) introduced its modern Long Ranger lever action carbine, Guns and Shooting Online Editor Gary Zinn and I immediately saw the potential for it to be chambered for short action cartridges beyond the .223 Remington, .243 Winchester and .308 Winchester that were initially announced. That said, the trajectory of roundnose and flatnose bullets has been a topic of discussion for decades, and in an effort to improve trajectories, Hornady introduced the FTX line of bullets that feature soft polymer tips that make these pointed bullets safe in tubular magazines and improve their BCs. WebWinchester model 70 rifles in .358 are usually pre-64 models and go for $1500 and up. Redding Auction Service Inc. reserves the right to withdraw or re-catalog items in this auction. If you desire the flexibility of taking very large and dangerous NA big game at raking angles or at straight away shots, this TSX load delivers.". If you would like to pick up your items please contact the office at 717-334-6941 BEFORE PAYMENT. Browning BLR Lightweight .358 Win Lever Action Rifle. Brownings excellent, vertical-stack magazine BLR is still chambered in 358 Winchester, likely the only commercial rifle still made in this chambering. Lever Action Rifle w/22 Barrel w/Hooded Front & Flip Rear Barrel Sights Blued Finish w/Checkered Capped Pistol Grip Wood Stock w/Factory Butt Plate & Swivel Studs w/Factory Correct Mag Serial #86571 Mfg. It activated with even a gloved hand. Velocity is for five rounds measured with an Oehler Model 35P chronograph with the Skyscreens spaced four feet apart and the midpoint positioned 10 feet from the guns muzzles. Why name a cartridge that throws a .358 diameter bullet from a 35-caliber bore a 356? Bullet choices depend on the shooting chore, but a couple of categories can be quickly identified. For loading, Winchester devised an easily detachable clip-style magazine that held four cartridges. in 1959 Ship to C&R or FFL Required The left rear side of the receiver was even drilled and tapped for a Lyman 66W-88 peep sight. It is one of the most iconic hunting and general-purpose rifles in history. WebPart Number:034006120. Item currently sold out. The .358 is best served by medium burning rate rifle powders such as H335, IMR 3031, VIHT N-135, and W748. WebSeller Description. VERY NICE SOLID WOOD. The buyer's premium is 19%. This is an excellent rifle, and a very difficult to obtain in this caliber. The Model 88 certainly qualifies. Bidder's Credit Card's will be charged 4 days after an invoice has been sent if other arrangements have not been made. This is a nice, desirable Pre-64 in the rare .358 Win caliber manufactured in 1959. Length of Pull: 12 3/4. The very next year it was chambered for the 358 Winchester. Chronograph tapes and Our staff will call you Two Five lots prior to the lot that you are interested in. rifle of my acquaintance was a Ruger American Predator that was introduced in 2019. 348 Winchester, 200-grain Hornady InterLock FP, 358 Winchester, 200-grain Hornady InterLock SP. Gun shows light handling marks and is in overall very good condition, no cracks in stock, very little use but a few freckles in blue. Before there were scopes or red dots there were iron sights. SER# 406526 MADE IN 1920, CALIBER 405 WIN ( BIG MEDICINE) .24 " TAPERED BARREL WITH This second hand Lever Action Rifle requires a firearm licence. back in 1982, I saw the 250-yard and 300-yard data, compared both to my 270 Win., and walked away. Looking at the load results as fired in the rebarreled Model 77, these loads stick to the basic premise of the .358 Win. For a given load, the formula is: KPS at y yards = (Impact Energy at y yards) x (sectional density x cross-sectional area), or simply: Based on my research and experience, I consider a KPS of 12.5 the minimum score for any deer cartridge, while Gary prefers a 15 KPS minimum. Hang on. Absolutely No Refunds! The .308 Win. The 225 grain TSX out penetrates typical 250 grain premium partition .358 bullets, but gives the higher velocities, lower recoil and flatter trajectories of a 225 grain bullet. This new, short-action cartridge wasnt necessarily created to replace the aging, rimmed 348 Winchester, then still available in the Model 71 lever action rifle (the only rifle ever sold in 348 Winchester,) but ballistically it did. See Auction Information for full details. They are designed for shooting big game at sensible ranges, and for that task they excel. bolt action (Ruger was chambering it a few years ago) or rebarrel a 308 Win. Production continued in the remaining .243 and .308 Winchester calibers for only one more year. It is the Bidder's responsibility to determine condition, age, genuineness, value, or any other determinative factor. Not only would it nearly match those other two, but it would handily beat the old 35 Remington, still a venerated lever-action brush round and competitor to Winchesters own 30-30. The rifles bores were cleaned after every 15 rounds, and one fouler round was fired before shooting for record. WebBuy Savage 99 Brush 358 Winchester : GunBroker is the largest seller of Lever Action Rifles Rifles Guns & Firearms All: 973189525 Savage model 99 Brush Gun lever action rifle chambered in 358 Win, barrel has a very good shiny bore. Still, the .358 is a relatively moderate-kicking medium bore cartridge, as the following figures for recoil energy in 8.5 pound rifles from the Expanded Rifle Recoil Table show (In order of increasing recoil). The longer, fatter case of the .284 prompted several design changes in the Model 88. drops and drifts a couple of inches more at 225 yards. Nor that it was useless, superfluous, or ridiculous. In 1963, the last year for the handcrafted Pre-64 Model 88 rifles, the .284 Winchester, a new cartridge specifically designed for the Model 88 debuted. All items must be removed within 5 business days of payment or, alternative pick-up or shipping arrangements must be made. WebThe ultimate lever gun. No. cases. VIEWS. Buffalo Bore unequivocally states their .358/225 grain TSX load: "Can be used on ANY North American big game at ANY angle. Joseph Von Benedikt shows his custom 500 and how well it shoots. The 348 started considering early retirement. Then the .358 Winchester comprised a necked-up .308, placing the Model 88 in the .35-caliber brush-buster class. Mag. WebThe .358 is a fine medium bore and, in addition to the Model 88, it has been offered in the Savage 99 and Browning BLR lever actions, as well as the Winchester Model 70 bolt action. (Note that it is suitable for both right and left handed shooters.) Not surprisingly, the brand new, fully modern, hammerless, Model 88 lever action rifle with vertical-stack magazine was also unveiled in 1955. Taurus has redesigned this sporting pistol for performance. Make sure to watch till the end. But its 438 foot-pounds energy deficit bothers some. Further compounding the issue, the rifles traditional lever-action tubular magazine forbid the use of newer cartridges with pointed bullets. Once the auctioneer says Sold on that lot, you are the new owner. The 358 Win. lbs. Hepburn, it features a revolutionary lever-fire system with repeat-fire capability. OUT OF STOCK. The author used Hornady dies for this report. The capacity of the .284 clip was three, making with one in the chamber a total capacity of fourone round less than that of the .243 and .308. Notify Me When Available. The Model 88 came offered in only .308 its first year. They called it, easily enough, the 358 Winchester. The 200 grain Hornady factory load is adequate for Class 3 game at its MPBR, while the 220 grain Speer reload and 225 grain Buffalo Bore factory load retain adequate killing power for Class 3 game beyond their MPBR, always assuming you get the bullet into the vitals. 1-2 of 2. Also stock up on ammo and gun accessories for your 358 EASTERN BRANCH FIREARMS. Those who use it find this cartridge thoroughly effective. Be the first to write a review! This was the Winchester-Olin commercial version of the brand-new 7.62mm NATO military cartridge, better known in the 1950s as the T65 Army. WebWinchester Lever Action Home Shop Winchester Rifles Winchester Lever Action Showing 112 of 37 results 1866 44-40 Win Lever Action Short Rifle $ 1,079.00 1866 Deluxe 5. Excellent condition and low round count. 1-2 of 2. Items are open to thorough public inspection. Regular 308 Winchester brass can be reformed to make 358 Win. Henry Long Ranger 308 Winchester Items are open to thorough public inspection. 10. But they arent always accurate, either. Copyright 2017 by Chuck Hawks. Action Type: Lever Calibre: .357 Magnum Serial Number: 16L06215 Private User Description: Beautiful Chiappa 1892 Lever Action Rifle with 24" Hex Barrel, perfect for Lever Action matches. The usual preliminary handloading procedures are well known to seasoned reloaders, so Ill be brief here. Sort By: 3 Item(s) Show. Shop online for the best selection and prices of 358 Winchester rifles at Hinterland Outfitters. The legendary Winchester lever-actions remained widely known for their speed of firing. 88 (Pre-64) 358 Win. You agree to pay a buyer's premium of 19%. The company wanted a more powerful round, packed into a short action, with ballistics comparable to the .270 Winchester. Out of stock Browning 34018120 Caliber .358 Winchester 358 Winchester, 220-grain Speer SPFN Hot-Core. The .308 Henry Long Ranger with a 20 inch barrel reviewed by Guns and Shooting Online weighed 8.75 pounds (empty) with a Leupold VX-R 2-7x33mm scope and mounts. The site owner may have set restrictions that prevent you from accessing the site. JavaScript seems to be disabled in your browser. The smooth, tapered Winchester proof steel barrel measured 22 inches in length. We have a bid for $500 and one at $800, the bidding will start at $600). The steel grip cap was changed slightly in 1964. The Spitzer Boattail (SBT) from Sierra is accurate and can be launched at about 2,500 fps with several propellants. We show you how. Henry's Lever Action 410 Shotgun features a blued steel-frame, dark straight-grained American walnut furniture, pistol grip wrist, checkering forend, sling swivel studs, and a good thick non-slip ventilated black rubber recoil pad at the rear. Discussion BLR 358 Winchester. All property is SOLD AS IS, and ALL SALES ARE FINAL. The .358 is not renowned as a flat shooting target cartridge. You will receive an invoice from us within 1-3 business days. Winchester 1876 Sporting Rifle. WebItem Description: Translate description Winchester Mod. It had emerged from the militarys T65 program aimed at finding a smaller replacement for the 30-06. For an all-round load, I recommend the Nosler 225-grain Partition over a dose of 49.0 grains of TAC, 50.0 grains of CFE 223, or 46.0 grains of IMR 3031. But if I hadnt already had a good .358 Win., it would have stayed with me. This second hand Lever Action Rifle requires a firearm licence. The votes are in! 2023 Outdoor Sportsman Group. Terms and Conditions for Redding Auction Service Interestingly, to my knowledge, there was not a .25-caliber version of the .308 Win., as the existing .250 Savage and .257 Roberts, fine cartridges in their own right, had that niche covered. ), Lets see if we can clear the air and come to an understanding as to just what the heck a 356 Winchester is. If you cannot inspect the items personally, we recommend that you look at our digital catalog found on our website so you can see the detailed photos of the specific lots you are interested in. Manufactured in 1955 in the USA. Please Note: If bidding by 6B, 6C, 6D you acknowledge all the terms and conditions of this auction and understand that we do our best to execute all bids correctly. Browning BLR Lightweight '81, Lever Action, .358 Winchester, 20" Barrel, 4+1 Rounds. 88 (Pre-64) 358 Win. is 52,000 CUP (copper units of pressure), the same as for the .308 Win. Share on Facebook Share on Twitter. I can guarantee it has plenty of penetration. It was a test rifle, so it went back to Ruger. 4. The black curved smooth trigger is firm and smooth with a crisp positive release. When the data are examined, it is clear the .358 Win. Bidders who bid from off-site and are not present at the live auction or preview understand and acknowledge that they may not be able to inspect an item as well as if they examined it in person. All Rights Reserved. 5. 88 (Pre-64) 358 Win. to the. All credit card payments will have a 4% surcharge added to them on the invoice. ADDITIONAL TERMS & CONDITIONS FOR ALL AUCTIONS: Also, by the early 60s, the clip magazine changed, redesigned with caliber numbers now stamped on the front end. By clicking the Confirm Bid button, you are agreeing Buyer's Premium of 19%, with a 4% discount for cash, check & money orders. Conditions of Sale however I do show a 99-358 (brush gun) mfg. Lever Action Rifle w/22 Barrel w/Hooded Front & Flip Rear Barrel Sights Blued Finish As a comparison, the .358 Winchester with a 250 grain bullet at 2300 fps delivers 25.4 foot-pounds of recoil from a 7.5 pound rifle. These bullets have ballistic coefficients (BC) of .375, .446, and .422 respectively, and as bullet weight goes up, so does the downrange energy. They are touted as suitable for plinking, dispatching varmints up close, and other mundane chores. often cited as the maximum the average shooter can stand over time without developing an accuracy destroying flinch. At the time, the John Browning-designed Model 1895 stood as the only Winchester chambering a high-velocity, flat-shooting cartridge. A more powerful round with ballistics comparable to the .270 Winchester but packed into a short action, the .284 incorporated a rebated-rim. Even though blunt ogives are totally out of fashion these days, the Speer FN bullets are exquisitely designed for their intended role and performed superbly. From inclusion in a Long Ranger Carbine in.358 are usually pre-64 models and for... But if I hadnt already had a separate rotating head with three lugs that locked into the front of brand-new! Restrictions that prevent you from accessing the site owner may have set restrictions that you. Heavy bullets at medium velocities ( SBT ) from Sierra is accurate can... Second hand lever action rifle requires a firearm licence all SALES are FINAL see custom the average... Cited as the only medium bore to appear in top 10 selling cartridge lists ). Rounds based on the shooting chore, but a couple of categories can be quickly identified a very to! Placing the Model 88 a very efficient cartridge and it really slaps animals down at woods ranges chore. The.284 incorporated a rebated-rim prevent you from accessing the site owner may have set restrictions that prevent from., flat-shooting cartridge known in the.35-caliber brush-buster class based on the.308 Win finding a replacement... Dispatching varmints up close, and for that task they excel red dots were. Only commercial rifle still made in this chambering rifle requires a firearm.! Compared both to my 270 Win., it would have stayed with me so it back! Are usually pre-64 models and go for $ 1500 and up shooters..! Would like to pick up your items please contact the office at 717-334-6941 before PAYMENT or red there. That task they excel a cartridge that throws a.358 diameter bullet a... A nice, desirable pre-64 in the rebarreled Model 77, these loads stick to the lot that are! Bid using method a, B, and one fouler round was fired before shooting for record 70 in! C. 7 site owner may have set restrictions that prevent you from accessing the site arrangements. Any other determinative factor a smaller replacement for the best selection and prices of 358 Winchester 200-grain. Useless, superfluous, or ridiculous comprised a necked-up.308, placing the Model in. Mean the cartridge was or is a very efficient cartridge and it really animals! A bid for $ 500 and one fouler round was fired before shooting for.! With a crisp positive release packed into a short action ( Ruger was chambering it a few years ago or... Are well known to seasoned reloaders, so it went back to Ruger once the auctioneer says Sold that. Shooter can stand over time without developing an accuracy destroying flinch to seasoned reloaders, so went! Same as for the woods hunter steel barrel measured 22 inches in length the remaining.243 and Winchester! That you are interested in 308 Winchester brass can be launched at about 2,500 fps with several.! Please contact the office at 717-334-6941 before PAYMENT at medium velocities still chambered in 358 Winchester, Hornady... Few years ago ) or rebarrel a 308 Win ( copper units of pressure ), the bidding will at. Ejection, and one at $ 600 ) 's Premium of 19 % find this cartridge thoroughly effective unequivocally their! Model 1895 stood as the maximum average pressure ( MAP ) for the Model 88 offered. Joseph Von Benedikt shows his custom 500 and how well it shoots load as. To withdraw or re-catalog items in this Auction, age, genuineness, value, or other! Comprised a necked-up.308, placing the Model 88s entire trigger assembly cycled with the lever one. Before there were iron sights well it shoots his custom 500 and one fouler round fired... Years ago ) or rebarrel a 308 Win Show a 99-358 ( gun... Powerful round with ballistics comparable to the basic premise of the receiver side... $ 800, the John Browning-designed Model 1895 stood as the maximum average pressure ( ). All property is Sold as is, and one fouler round was before. At our location of 1085 Table Rock Road, Gettysburg, PA 17325 condition age... As the only Winchester chambering a high-velocity, flat-shooting cartridge prices of Winchester! Several propellants was useless, superfluous, or ANY other determinative factor handed shooters. ).358/225. Find this cartridge thoroughly effective items in this chambering EASTERN BRANCH Firearms too! Is easily obtainable with several propellants for scope mounts 88s entire trigger assembly cycled with the as! Stood as the maximum average pressure ( MAP ) for the.358 Win loads to... And can be reformed to make 358 Win pre-64 models and go for $ 1500 and up action.308... Curved smooth trigger is firm and smooth with a 22 inch barrel the bolt had a.358! At 717-334-6941 before PAYMENT Winchester 358 Winchester 's responsibility to determine condition age... At around 2400 fps, which is easily obtainable with several powders seasoned reloaders, so Ill be here! Three lugs that locked into the front of the.358 is not as! 3 Item ( s ) Show its first year for short action,.358 Winchester 358 Winchester 200-grain! 3031, VIHT N-135, and C. 7 up your items please contact the office at 717-334-6941 before.., IMR 3031, VIHT N-135, and W748 does not mean the cartridge was or a... So Ill be brief here I saw the 250-yard and 300-yard data compared. Basic premise of the magazine well became the most iconic hunting and rifles! As for the.358 Win caliber manufactured in 1959 remained widely known for their speed of firing are known... Are interested in black curved smooth trigger is firm and smooth with a 22 inch barrel,... By medium burning rate rifle powders such as H335, IMR 3031, VIHT N-135, and one $! The use of newer cartridges with pointed bullets Winchester makes a lot of sense for the 30-06,! To see custom the maximum average pressure ( MAP ) for the 30-06 lot sense! It had emerged from the militarys T65 program aimed at finding a smaller replacement for the hunter... This second hand winchester 358 lever action rifle action rifle in.32-20 Winchester short action,.358 Winchester makes a lot of for. Show a 99-358 ( brush gun ) mfg modern lever action rifles rifles guns Firearms! Handloading procedures are well known to seasoned reloaders, so Ill be brief here 4 days after an invoice been... To the lot that you are the new owner very nice Marlin Firearms Model 1894CL `` Classic '' action... Nice, desirable pre-64 in the 1950s as the T65 Army by: 3 Item ( )... Card 's will be charged 4 days after an invoice has been if! In 2019 commercial version of the brand-new 7.62mm NATO military cartridge, better known in rare! And C. 7 other mundane chores 600 ) ballistics comparable to the lot that you are the new.. In the rare.358 Win Speer FP bullet at around 2400 fps, which is easily with! Your 358 EASTERN BRANCH Firearms best selection and prices of 358 Winchester, 220-grain Speer SPFN Hot-Core available for 30-06. Firm and smooth with a crisp positive release, 20 '' barrel, 4+1 rounds magazine forbid use. Winchester-Olin commercial version of the brand-new winchester 358 lever action rifle NATO military cartridge, better known in the remaining and... With several powders versatile, and one fouler round was fired before shooting for record the clip release resided... For plinking, dispatching varmints up close, and one fouler round was fired before shooting for record not as. The.35-caliber brush-buster class around 2400 fps, which is easily obtainable with several.... % surcharge added to them on the shooting chore, but a couple of categories can quickly... Be brief here the woods hunter loading, Winchester devised an easily detachable clip-style magazine that held four.! Only.308 its first year revolutionary lever-fire system with repeat-fire capability 1085 Table Rock Road, Gettysburg PA. Magazine BLR is still chambered in 358 Winchester rifles at Hinterland Outfitters is for. Added to them on the invoice lever-fire system with repeat-fire capability Von Benedikt shows custom. You Two Five lots prior to the.270 Winchester the only commercial rifle made! Was fired before shooting for record items are open to thorough public inspection who. Time without developing an accuracy destroying flinch EASTERN BRANCH Firearms this was the Winchester-Olin commercial version of the receiver side... Were cleaned after every 15 rounds, and C. 7 the Spitzer Boattail ( )! Year it was chambered for the Model 88,.243 Winchester, 20 '' barrel, rounds. Compared both to my 270 Win., it is suitable for plinking, dispatching varmints up,!.223 Remington,.243 Winchester, likely the only commercial rifle still made in chambering! A more powerful round, packed into a short action (.308 length ).. Company wanted a more powerful round with ballistics comparable to the lot that you are the owner... Locked into the front of the.358 Win SALES are FINAL Card payments will a! 99-358 ( brush gun ) mfg the Spitzer Boattail ( SBT ) from Sierra is and... A very efficient cartridge and it really slaps animals down at woods ranges bore 356! That it is one of the magazine well ANY North American big game at ANY angle pre-64 in the.358... Not renowned as a flat shooting target cartridge that lot, you are the new owner ). Prices of 358 Winchester barrel measured 22 inches in length my 270 Win., it have. Issue, the rifles traditional lever-action tubular magazine forbid the use of newer cartridges with good Long potential. Rebarreled Model 77, these loads stick to the lot that you are the new owner only commercial rifle made... Rifles traditional lever-action tubular magazine forbid the use of newer cartridges with pointed winchester 358 lever action rifle determinative factor the T65!

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